Crip Café: Unpacking disabled icons with Trish Harris

Olivia: Kia ora and welcome to Crip Café, a fortnightly live podcast where we figure out how to be disabled together in Aotearoa. I'm your host, Olivia and we have Soph on‑board today. Welcome.

Soph: Hello, welcome back to Crip Café. And thank you to Ella for stepping in as a host last time. It was really awesome to watch the episode from the sidelines. I was away on holiday in the UK visiting family and now I'm back. I'm glad to be here.

Olivia: We're happy to have you.

Soph: For our third ever episode we have a special guest joining us live later on, Trish Harris who's the author of Out of the Box: 25 Deaf and disabled artists, activists and adventurers from Aotearoa New Zealand. Trish is a writer and also co-founded Crip the Lit which many of you will know is a collective of Deaf and disabled writers in Aotearoa. So we're really excited to have our first guest today. Do you want to talk about the theme?

Olivia: Yeah, so the theme this week is we have tried to link it in with the overall theme of the book, we're going to be unpacking disabled icons today. So if you've got any comments, please post them on the comments regarding, what makes a good disabled icon? Do you have a favourite disabled icon? Or who else do you look up to in the community? So we'd love to hear those ideas and discuss them later on.

Soph: Yes, while you guys are thinking on that, we'll come back to those in a bit. Let's talk about the news. So, we've got a few headlines from the last couple of weeks. The first one, Trevor Potter, a New Zealand man, has finally been offered an accessible home after spending five years on the housing waitlist. He was mistakenly dropped off the list due to a housing error. His case has renewed calls for access to be improved to disability friendly homes. Understandably people feel that nobody should have to wait for five years to be able to access a home that actually suits their needs. This feels like a pretty recurring story in the community. We hear about this kind of thing happening a lot.

Olivia: Yeah, it is a tricky thing finding accessible housing. Housing in general and then accessible housing that meets all your needs.

Soph: Yeah. We have two people in the office right now who are, well, actually three people who are house hunting at the moment, so it's hot topic for us also in The D*List office.

Olivia: We have talked this week in the office about if we had this dream house, that would fit all The D*List staff members' needs, it actually probably would, well all our access needs would be conflicting.

Soph: If we all had to live together in the one house?

Olivia: Yeah. That would never happen but...

Soph: Yeah, no, I'd love for that to happen, but yeah, I think we would all have slightly different wishes and hopes for our own accessible home.

Olivia: Some people would want quiet rooms, some people would want creative, loud spaces. But yeah, accessibility into housing is a big thing.

Soph: If anyone has any tips for house hunting when you're looking for accessible housing, send them through, we would love to hear. Another piece of news from the last couple of weeks, Marton School has received a $20,000 grant to replace its playground with a new accessible play space. It will include an accessible carousel for students who use wheelchairs, as well as a slide, a flying fox and a tree house. I've been to one accessible playground before in Auckland. I assume there are more?

Olivia: I think I was too old by the time accessible playgrounds became a thing. I do remember, I think in Rocket Park in Mt Albert there's an accessible swing where you can wheel on to in your wheelchair. I think I have used it once as an adult and I think there are definitely more playgrounds where there's more ramp access, or different, play things which are an accessible height. I'm actually keen to ask Red. Red is probably more frequent to playgrounds as a parent than us at the moment. What's your experience at playgrounds?

Red: It's actually great timing, because today there is an amazing new playground that's opening up just down the road from us the Whau River out in West Auckland. If you know, you know. And it's all beautifully created with no kind of random, arbitrary wooden barriers and stuff. There is a bit of bark going on, but there's also lots of soft areas. So I'm not sure about the wheelchair accessibility of the swing, for example, but I do think that the broad accessibility of playgrounds is trending in the right direction.

Can I just say, though, aside from the chat around the hilarity of multiple disabled people living together in one house and our opposing access needs, five years to wait for an accessible home? Like, just outrageous, not good enough, it's horrendous and just thinking of that person and the indignity with which disabled people are asked to live to get their basic human rights met. So yeah, just thinking about that person and thrilled that they've finally got a place that meets their needs. But it's just not good enough and we come to accept that level of indignity and we should never. Thank you for listening to my little soapbox moment.

Olivia: We'll bring you back soon.

Soph: It's true. Five years, I mean how much can you celebrate after you've been waiting five years and what state of mind and well‑being are you in by that point. Yeah, it's not acceptable. Last piece of news for today, the Glasgow 2026 Commonwealth Games start this Friday. The games will feature a record 47 para sport medal events making it the largest integrated para sport programme in Commonwealth Games.

Olivia: I think that's cool. That's cool that they're integrated, so it's one big sporting event rather than kind of like a ‑‑

Soph: Olympics and Paralympics.

Olivia: Yeah, Olympics and Paralympics.

Soph: You were saying earlier you would like to go to a Paralympics opening ceremony one day?

Olivia: Yeah, I think that's on my bucket list. I think it would be fun, a cool thing to celebrate.

Soph: Have you ever been to a Paralympics event?

Olivia: Never.

Soph: Really?

Olivia: Maybe ‑ what's the most likely chance I can go? Is the next games in Brisbane? No?

Soph: I wish I knew.

Olivia: Australia, yeah, Australia is more likely than somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere, so let's do a D*List report from the next Paralympics.

Soph: Yes. I've been to one Paralympics event, London 2012 when I lived in the UK, and I saw Blind football and it was great fun.

Olivia: Cool.

Soph: That's the news for this week. Shall we talk about our non‑disabled nonsenses of the week?

Olivia: Yes, we love this section. I think the audience also loves this section. So non‑disabled nonsense is a moment that's happened in this week/recently where we just have a moment to be annoyed.

Soph: At non‑disabled people.

Olivia: So my one for this week is, I was going to use an ATM to get some cash out and there was a big step in front of it and the screen was quite high. So my annoyance is, why do they design ATMs that are not accessible? I've talked to another colleague, Ella, who is short statured, and the screens are so high that you're kind of guessing what you're clicking. Am I doing my savings or my cheque account? Who knows? I don't know, I can't see.

So the screens are too high and that's my, yeah, annoying non‑disabled nonsense which is over an accessibility fail. I'm sure there's plenty of other accessibility fails that we see, but I wrote them a very strongly worded email and they responded, which I'd say kudos to the bank. So I'm going to drive past it everyday and see if it's been repaired, you know, fixed, or made accessible.

Soph: Yeah, I guess the mild win there was that they admitted that it was not supposed to be like that and it doesn't meet their own standards to have that step there. And they did say they will fix it, but let's see how many weeks, months, years.

Olivia: I mean it's probably been in that state for a long time and it's just taken me, however many years later, to email them for them to make it accessible. So how about you?

Soph: Okay, my non‑disabled nonsense of the week actually kind of in the process of thinking about it turned into something entirely different, but as I mentioned, I was in the UK a few weeks ago and if you have ever been to the UK you might know that in order to use accessible toilets, you have to have something called a RADAR key. And the RADAR key you have to typically order online, get it delivered to you. So if you're a tourist very hard to get a hold of those. Because I've lived there before I already had one. But my gripe with them is that if you are inside an accessible toilet and someone else with a RADAR key comes along, they can unlock the door while you are using the toilet.

Olivia: That's like my worst nightmare.

Soph: It is harrowing because if you're sat in there potentially having a vulnerable moment, thinking someone might walk in at any time is not the ideal experience. That being said, my assumption was when I was thinking about this, that the system was designed by a non‑disabled person, and I was actually incorrect about that. So I found an article called ‘History of Accessible Toilets in the UK’ and I will just give some very quick facts from that that I thought were interesting.

So the first accessible toilet was created in Norwich, which is where my parents live ‑ hello ‑ by a disabled architect named Selwyn Goldsmith. He interviewed 284 local disabled people and their key priority was public toilets, followed by shops and restaurants. And then the RADAR key came about through a collaboration between the Royal Association For Disability and Rehabilitation, known as RADAR, and a company called Nicholls & Clarke. That was launched in 1981 and the scheme has not changed since. So love all of the background of collaboration between different disability organisations and communities that came about to make this work. I think surely, though, we could somehow update the system so that it's easier for visitors to access the toilets and also less scary that someone may walk in on you while you're in the toilet. So that's my actually disabled nonsense of the week, but I thought that was really interesting.

Olivia: So yeah, disabled nonsense not non‑disabled. I think it just probably needs updating. There's a lot more people who are aware of, probably more disabled people who are like, yeah, I could benefit from this now. So the volume of people in the system is not, yeah, it's not matched.

Soph: Yeah, I like the thinking behind it being, like, we want to make sure only disabled people are using the toilet, and also the idea was that if someone can access the toilet, it means they need to use it, which is good for people who are invisibly disabled, you know if they've got a key they have a reason to use the toilet. So there was good logic behind it, but I feel like we could update that scheme a little bit.

Red: I have a question. I've heard these RADAR keys are quite large, and if you wear it on your key chain, which might be outside your person, it's a real visible signifier of disability. I'm wondering is it functioning ‑ is there a little bit of it that's kind of like I'm in the cool kids club with the RADAR key, is it like a sunflower lanyard? Question.

Soph: That's an interesting question. It is quite big. I want to say it's, like, 4 inches long and is blue, so you can't miss it. It is a little bit clunky but, yeah, I've never worn mine externally on my person, but maybe some people are out there doing that.

Red: Lanyard energy.

Soph: Yeah, sunflower lanyard with the RADAR key on the end.

Red: Incredible.

Olivia: Cool, well, before we head to Trish who is on standby to talk more about this book, I just want to see, do we have any comments or things come through? No, okay, so I'll keep things moving. Before we welcome Trish, I wanted to ask you, Soph, with this topic of unpacking disabled icons; what makes a disabled icon?

Soph: Great question, and I wish I had thought about it before now. I think I love to see someone who is completely comfortable talking about being a disabled person in public, someone who advocates for the community and their disability identity isn't entirely individual. And just cool disabled people who do cool stuff. That's what I think a disabled icon is.

Olivia: Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. I think the first word that comes to mind is unapologetic. Do you have a disabled icon you can think of?

Soph: I've got a couple. First of all, just in general, all of my friends who are disabled, they're iconic to me. The support that disabled friends provide for each other, I think it keeps us all going when other people are not there for us. So that is a huge one for me. And also to talk about disabled celebrities for a minute, maybe not a celebrity, I want to mention Marsha Linehan, who is the person who created dialectical behavioural therapy (DBT), and she created that therapy because nobody else had created any kind of support or treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder.

And she herself and was treated very poorly, and so she created a whole system of support and treatment, like, basically alone for something that non‑disabled people did not care about. And she's iconic, she's still alive now. She's written some great books about BPD and about her life growing up with BPD. Shout out Marsha Linehan for doing something that the community needed that no‑one else was going to do.

Olivia: Good on her. I think the first time I was like that person is a disabled icon is probably Judy Heumann who is a disability rights advocate in the United States. And if you've seen Crip Café, no, not Crip Café, Crip Camp, the other iconic CC title, her activism is really on display in that documentary.

And I should have brought up the exact line, but she has this line which is, like, so relatable today, but she's speaking into a microphone in front of all these disabled people saying “why are we still complaining about disabled toilets?” Which is, again, we're still doing that now 2026 just based on this conversation. So yeah, she was really key in terms of, like, pushing for the ADA, which is the accessibility legislation in the United States, so she's great. And there's a film about her life coming out later this year, so I'm very excited to see that which is very cool.

Soph: We love to see disabled icons doing awesome things for the community, and also sometimes wish that we didn't have to do those things.

Olivia: I'm going to now transition and put my headphones on so I can hear Trish.

Soph: Yes, we're going to bring in Trish who me and Liv will be able to hear on our headphones in a moment.

Olivia: We're going to just set up the two-cam set up and Trish will pop up, I guess. Trish, there are a lot of disabled icons in your book. On that topic, do you have a favourite disabled icon?

Trish: I did think you might ask me that. But a bit like Soph, I wish I'd known earlier. I guess a lot of people that I know, that I've grown up with my Deaf and disabled peers, they'd definitely be on that list. I'm trying to think of when I was growing up, though. There was a book called Over My Dead Body by June Opie - who contracted polio and spent quite a bit of time in an iron lung.

And I think her book really stood out for me, because you never knew what was going to happen, you know, what was going to be the result of this. So it had that pace, you know, that engagement in the story, but also she was real, and I think it's kind of what you guys were saying too, that our icons are real people talking in a real way about their experiences. But also they're wider than themselves, they have a broader view, they have that community view. And they're just interesting people. So, you know, if I had to name one on the spot, June Opie, but there's a lot of others too.

Olivia: Awesome. And congratulations on your book. We've had it around the office and we've all passed it around and really enjoyed reading it. Tell us a bit of background about how the book came about.

Trish: Yeah, it has a few origin stories, and I guess it partly came about because there was a gap. You know, there are some great books for young people that have short, really interesting little biographies of people who have done stuff. And some of those books might have one or two Deaf or disabled people in them. But we know there's so many more than that that you could write about who are important people to Aotearoa, they've contributed, they've done interesting things. And so I knew there was that gap, I also wanted to write for children and young people. I've written other books, poetry and a memoir, but not specifically for that age group. And, you know, as a writer that was an area I wanted to have a go in. And also I read a lot in that area anyway.

So I think some of the best books and the best writers work in that area of writing for children and young people. And I also thought children and young people would be really interested in those stories and knew that teaching Aotearoa's history was something that was going to be happening and I thought I hope they're teaching our history, what an opportunity to do that. So that's one of the reasons. But I also applied for a fellowship, Arts Access Aotearoa put together a fellowship about four years ago for Deaf and disabled artists.

So every Deaf and disabled artist around the country thought, what project could I work on in order to be funded for a year to really explore something. And it crystallised all those things I've already talked about in my head to this book, this is the book. And that book has developed, you know, it's not exactly as it was in that first funding application, because I had to do three funding applications to different places to get funding. But when I did, you know, I was able to start work on the book, which was fantastic.

Soph: Can I ask a question?

Olivia: Sure, Soph is going to ask a question.

Soph: I just want to jump in and, yeah, also echo what Liv said about how awesome this book is ‑ sorry, let me not walk away from my mic ‑ how awesome this book is and how much it does fill a gap in New Zealand about, like, even highlighting to people that disability culture is a thing that exists and it's vibrant and worth exploring, and there are people out there that, like, deserve more of our attention. So, yeah, really excited about this book. Knowing that it is filling this gap that people aren't really talking about, how did you come to select the 25 people that you've included in this book?

Trish: That's a $1 million question, isn't it. Because I think Olivia when we spoke, you were saying how did you just make it 25? Because we know how broad and deep the community is, especially if you're wanting to go back to the, you know, not so recent decades if you're wanting that historical view. Which I did, I really wanted that in the book as well as contemporary.

So I suppose I had to work out, think of my audience, which was young people, what would they be interested in. So this could have been a book of 25 activists easily, and there would have been young people interested in that. But I also knew we've got adventurers, we've got sporting people, we've got artists, so I wanted to make sure that the spread of people I chose represented those broad areas, those three broad areas; artists, activists and adventurers. I knew I wanted, like I said, that historical spread. I knew I didn't want a book full of, like I have a mobility impairment, I didn't want it a book full of people with mobility impairments.

Again, I wanted to show the breadth of our community, and for young people who had impairments to be able to look at that book and maybe see someone who was similar to themselves in that respect, or similar to themselves in that they loved sport, or went on protests. So those were some of the things I was looking at. I also wanted a gender spread, a good cultural representation. And so I started off with doing a list just myself, you know, from my own head, my own experiences, I've been around a bit, and I came up with 30 people just like that, of course.

Then I began researching, I did a lot of reading, I looked at things, old TV programmes, went into Papers Past, this amazing resource at the National Library, and read articles and essays and a whole lot of places, and I came up with a list of over 100 without much difficulty at all. So then I did have to do that whittling down. But because I knew my audience, because I knew our community, so I knew I couldn't have everyone. And I also knew that if I was writing a book of 100 people, I would be taking another 10 years and I'd have to go round another 100 publishers.

I mean I was lucky I didn't have to go round any because of just how things worked out. OUP, Otago University Press, saw I got that first grant and got in touch and we established a relationship which has led to it being published. But, you know, a book of 100 is a whole other deal to publish.

Olivia: And when you went through that list and you finally kind of put the stories together, what surprised you the most? Do you have any fun stories from along the way?

Trish: Yeah, I was thinking about this. It was hard to find information about, you know, our Deaf and disabled ancestors. It was hard to, just because, say, because I was looking, say, from the 1800’s on, not as much was recorded as it is today, of course, that's stating the obvious. So that's when I was looking through places like Papers Past, so that's the digitisation of a lot of newspapers from the 1800s to, I don't know where they're up to now, they're doing all newspapers, but they might be up to the 1860s. So you can go online, you can put in your key words and find out ‑ read articles that relate to those key words.

And so I was doing that for, you know, where are the Deaf and disabled people in 1860s New Zealand? Where are they being reported on in the newspaper? And so you put in your search terms, Blind, I was looking for graduates, Blind graduates, Deaf graduates, looking for explorers, crippled explorers, deformed explorers, because you had to start using the language of the day back there, and it sort of goes oh, this is an interesting thing to be doing and nothing was coming up.

And then I thought well, and I don't know how this popped into my head, maybe I had a conversation with someone, but I thought what about freak shows, why don't I Google "freak shows"? Not Google, put it into Papers Past. And "freaks" and "curiosities" and "stars of freak and curiosities shows", it's like, I don't want to be searching under these terms. But, you know, that's where some of us were, that's how we were labelled. And in a sense it would have been quite cool to come up with some person to profile from those kind of searches. But there was some travelling freak shows that didn't have people from Aotearoa in them. So, you know, they weren't going to go in the book.

But there was ‑ I meant to research before we were speaking today, but my memory is that I came across one story where the freaks and curiosities show the people in it were on strike for better pay. I thought well that's interesting, isn't it. Yeah, so that was definitely an interesting little rabbit hole to go down.

Olivia: That's a really interesting thing to imagine, that that's part of our history and for disabled people. So yeah, that's so interesting. Before we started this episode we asked our Instagram followers for some questions and so we had a question from someone and they've asked, what advice would you give to aspiring disabled and tāngata whaikaha writers?

Trish: Great question. Well, this is very basic, I'd say just do it, like, just start writing. Just start writing on your phone, on a notebook you might carry around with you, on a file you've got on your computer, just start doing it. Because I think there's nothing like our unconscious mind likes more than us paying attention to a desire like that. And the more you do it, the more you do it, the more your mind will come up with oh I could write about this, or I could write about that, because you've encouraged it.

I also know what's been really helpful for me is to enter competitions, if you're into poetry, Google poetry competitions, if you're into short stories, the same. And that's often for just that basic reason because it gives you a deadline and sometimes we need a deadline and an external structure to actually complete something. We all know a piece of writing can always be reworked or, you know, changed or whatever. But there's something that happens, I reckon, once you send it away. Something shifts and you can see it almost with fresh eyes. That's not always helpful because you've sent it away, it's too late to bring it back, but it isn't too late to work on it again and send it somewhere else. So I think competitions can be really useful, or looking out for anthologies that are looking for pieces from people.

I've always found writing in a group really gives you energy. You know, there's nothing like either doing writing exercises and hearing what other people have written to energise you. And sometimes that's an envy thing, you think oh they've done such a good piece and you can feel ‑ it's a brave thing to do to share your writing, it's good to remember that, it's a brave thing to do. It's enormously helpful if you're wanting to develop your writing.

So joining a writing group is a great thing, if you're able and there's something available, a writing course. I think for me my writing journey kind of really moved on when I decided that this isn't just writing for me any longer, this is writing I want to be brave enough to share, and that's a really big step, I think. And it's fine if you never want to do that, you know, like, writing just for ourselves is enormously satisfying and it can be cathartic, it can be fun, it can be lots of different things. But if you're thinking I want to move on, then I think taking those brave steps to share it in public, still in a safe space, but with others can really help you develop it.

And when you hear other people's writing in those forums where people are giving feedback, it's amazing how you can begin to translate those comments to your own. Sometimes it's easier to see how something works well in someone else's writing, or might need, you know, could be tweaked a bit to make it even stronger, and so that you learn from that experience and you can bring it home to your own writing too.

Olivia: Yeah, I think acknowledging, sorry, I was going to say I think acknowledging that writing is such an act of bravery and really vulnerable thing as well, it's so true, yeah.

Soph: I think there's a lot of people, you know, on The D*List we've published people at all different stages of their writing experience, or career and, you know, it's exciting to see people who are stepping up for the first time potentially sharing their writing in front of other people, and coming back to us again and wanting to write another story and gaining the practice, I guess the practice of continually putting yourself out there and seeing how your community receives your work.

I would just agree, I think, yeah, it's really cool to see disabled creatives out there, putting themselves out and being brave about their writing. We do have another audience question which maybe sort of jumps off of that in terms of the practice of writing. So this audience member asked, "Your new book is to beneficial for disabled and non‑disabled communities. I love the timelines, the personal parts and the definitions on every few pages. Did you find it tricky to write something for both disabled and non‑disabled audiences?" And I guess how conscious are you of there being a non‑disabled audience for this book when you were writing it?

Trish: That's a really great question. Like, I wish we could have a whole session where someone might tell me how to do some of that stuff well. Because it was like balancing on the head of a pin in some places. I workshopped the profiles with two very established writers who have written a lot for young people. So I was aware that wasn't a strength of mine. I have done a lot of writing but not for that audience. I was aware that I needed help with that side. But neither of them ‑ they're non‑disabled, you know, so immediately I was getting feedback about some of the things in the book from a non‑disabled audience.

So we had some good conversations about, you know, how much do you talk about someone's impairment? How do you talk about it? And, yeah, I find it quite challenging in some ways, because it's like inside me I have my own ableist stuff going on, you know, like I've always straddled. And so I wanted the book absolutely to work for a disabled audience, you know, that would be heart‑breaking to me if the book didn't.

But I think we live in a disabled and non‑disabled world and I tend to straddle both in my writing. And I could see a lot of value in that. I had a message from someone yesterday who's in the book, her niece had read the book and her niece was going around telling her own friends, "Look, my aunt's in this book and this is her friend, her friend's also in this book".

And I guess that's my vision, that's my vision that it's not that we are a disabled and non‑disabled society in some ways, or that we are, but there are lots of other combination of things in our society. So I hope the book straddles in a way that honours our Deaf and disabled community.

Yeah, I don't know that I've really answered that person's question, because it's a really big one, I think it's a really big one and I'd love to kōrero with other Deaf and disabled writers about ‑ I think of your work, Olivia, I read a lot of your stories when I was doing this book because some of these people have been featured, were featured by you in, say, Stuff when you were there. And I think there's a way that the impairment's there, yes, it's important, but it's not the only thing, you know, this is a multi‑faceted person, they have a desire to be the best sports person, how ordinary is that desire, you know? And it's not integral to their disability, it's part of them.

So I liked the way you did that and I tried to just keep the story going using details where it seemed important. Maybe occasionally putting in more details than I would have initially when I wrote the story, but again, trying to do that straddling for a mixed audience.

Olivia: Yeah, it's definitely a hard balance. When I was at Stuff I knew I was writing for a predominantly non‑disabled audience, but now at The D*List it's for fully, well, for the most part disabled audience, so finding that balance is tricky. Even for me, shifting my writing slightly, you know, was something I really had to be conscious about and remind myself of and get a lot of feedback for.

But, yeah, I think the way that these stories have been told in the book are just so beautiful, and, yeah, I'm looking forward to just being a resource for our communities, both disabled and non‑disabled, yeah, super exciting. And, yeah, I think that kind of is our last question.

But thank you so much for your time, Trish. We wish you all the success for the book and we look forward to seeing the next. Sounds like you've got a long list of people to get through, so we look forward to the next three 25 books of disabled people.

Soph: And where can people find this book? Let's plug where people can access copies of this book.

Trish: So first of all, thank you to both of you, I just really appreciate being able to talk to a disabled audience about the book and for your support. And if people do want to buy it, you can just ‑ you can do it several ways. If you've got a bookstore that's local to you and is easy for you to get to, you could just ring them up and ask if they've got it in stock, and if they haven't, nearly every bookstore would get it in stock for you at no cost to you.

But if you want it delivered, you could go on to Otago University Press's website and search for Out of the Box by Trish Harris and it will come up and you can order it there. So one of those methods should work. And the publishers are keen, and of course I'm incredibly keen that it's produced in alternative formats. That hasn't happened yet, we had to get this out first, but it's definitely on the agenda.

Soph: Is there anything else you would like to plug, or tell people where they can find more of your work, Trish?

Trish: That's a lovely invitation, thanks Soph. Copies of my poetry collection which is called My Wide White Bed available from the publisher, Landing Press, or from good bookstores, they will also be able to get it in. My memoir is now only available from me and I don't know if you'd be happy to be a conduit if anyone got in touch and wanted my contact details for that, thank you. I'm also on Arts Access' Taha Hotu page, so that's another way to get in touch with me.

Olivia: Cool, thank you so much, Trish, all the best, and, yeah, thank you so much for your time.

Trish: My pleasure, and great to have Crip Café. I'm going to go and send an email to a friend about it. Great resource. Bit of fun as well.

Olivia: Thank you.

Soph: Thanks Trish.

Trish: Bye.

Olivia: I'm going to take my headphones off now we don't need to connect through. Shall we close with one disability dilemma before we move in, do we have time? Yes, I think we should do this one. So disability dilemmas is our agony aunt section where people send us their dilemmas and we will try our best to answer it. We were sent this and the person said, "I live in Tāmaki and every time I drive into the city it feels like I'm searching for a mobility carpark. Is there an easier way to find them other than driving around aimlessly?"

Soph: Thoughts Liv?

Olivia: Well, yes, I guess I became very confident driving in the CBD because I studied at uni and drove into the city everyday. So I started to put together, like, a mental map ‑ I feel like lots of disabled people do this ‑ of accessible cafés, accessible toilets, carparks. So that's what I started to do with mobility carparks.

But I think the best resource I've found is, actually if you're in Tāmaki is the Auckland Transport mobility map and then if you just Google it. And I also think the AT carpark app is an interactive app where you can zoom in where you're going and little mobility permit symbols come up. So if I'm going somewhere new I will usually Google before I go.

Soph: So if you're outside of Tāmaki Makaurau and you have any knowledge about any equivalent resources?

Olivia: Yes, please let us know.

Soph: Cool. Have we got one more disability dilemma or are we done?

Olivia: I think we should save that one for next time, keep people wondering.

Soph: Keep people wondering. Okay, great, we'll have a surprise disability dilemma next time. Awesome. Well, thank you everyone for joining us today for listening to the public toilet chat and the awesome conversation that we had with Trish Harris. It was really beautiful to talk to her about just disabled icons and disabled culture in Aotearoa, and celebrating each other and celebrating our community.

Olivia: Yeah. We've got this awesome comment from Ella, "Such good advice, deadlines always help the process. Love your mahi, Trish".

Soph: We love the mahi of Trish Harris.

Olivia: Yeah. Then we also have another comment saying "Trish's pink hair is so Crip Café, obsessed, I love". Yeah, that was really on brand, really matched our brand colours for Crip Café.

Soph: Maybe she did it just for us, who knows. Awesome.

Olivia: Cool, thank you for joining this week of Crip Café. We will be back in another two weeks for another episode.

Soph: We will. See you then.

Olivia: Bye.