Crip Café: Are disabled students set up to be goodie goods or trouble makers?

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Ella: Welcome to Crip Café, a fortnightly live podcast where we figure out how to be disabled in Aotearoa. We're your hosts Ella and Talia.

Talia: Welcome back to Crip Café.

Ella: This season of Crip Café is proudly powered by our friends at Permobil. Nau mai ki te wiki o te reo Māori. Of course every week we should be celebrating the beautiful Māori language, but I hope this week you've had a chance to use some kupu, some kīwaha at tari, at school, in your everyday settings. Let the te reo Māori conversation flow. So yeah, kia ora koutou. Ko Ella tōku ingoa, nau mai haere mai ki te Crip Café. Why don't you introduce yourself Talia.

Talia: Cool. Kia ora, talofa lava, ko Talia tāku ingoa. I am the community development lead for the D*List.

Ella: Lovely.

Talia: Yeah, I was reflecting over what I have been doing here at the D*List, a short time but a good time, and last week we went to the Transition Expo, which was by Disability Connect and we reminisce of our school days, which brings to us this week's episode. Does being a disabled student set you up for being a goody good or a troublemaker? But before we get to that.

Ella: Are you thinking of running as a candidate in the 2026 general election?

Talia: As disabled people, we have unique points of view to make an impact in spaces like parliament. Running an election can come with additional barriers, though, particularly when it comes to the costs associated with disability.

Ella: That's where the election access fund comes in. It helps cover disability-related costs, while preparing to stand as a candidate, such as assistive technology, New Zealand Sign Language interpreters, and other accessibility support.

Talia: If you want to bring your POV to more places, this could be your first step.

Ella: Find out about the election access fund via the website.

Talia: Cool, now one of our favourite segments, non-disabled nonsense of the week. I have a story to tell, as I love to yap. My non-disabled nonsense comes from the fact that I am a type-1 diabetic and I have a sensor on my arm. And the sensor likes to go off to let me go when things are going bad most of the time. And it sounds like the Civil Defence alarm.

Ella: Oh, on the phone?

Talia: Yeah. And it's the fact that it's actually on my phone.

Ella: Is it loud?

Talia: Absolutely. So whenever I have a low or high blood sugar it goes mwah mwah and then I have to reach over and figure that all out, so that is my nonsense for probably the rest of my life.

Ella: So it's doing its job, it's alerting you.

Talia: It is alerting me and reminding me of the floods. Sorry if that's triggering, however, my nonsense for today.

Ella: So when you hear that alert you think is there a natural disaster.

Talia: Or is it my blood sugars, which could be a natural disaster.

Ella: You never know.

Talia: There is a poem in there. What about for you El, what's your nonsense today?

Ella: I was thinking of a story to tell and I was thinking of two stories, and the story I think I'll go with is, okay, hear me out. So the other day I was driving and I was at the lights, I think, or I was pulling up to the lights, and I actually got pulled over by a police officer.

Talia: What speed were you going?

Ella: Well, my first thought was I'm surely not being pulled over, what's going on? You know when you see the lights, you think here we go, they're going to go past me. But the police officer was pulling me over. I was like what have I been doing, like, you know, I wasn't speeding, my phone's got maps on it, I wasn't scrolling or anything. And the police officer came up to me and I was, like, thinking of all the things I could have been doing. He said to me that I was on my phone and I wasn't. And it was one of those things where I was, like, I absolutely was not on my phone, I know, you know when you just know. I was like, why do they think I was on my phone? And my conclusion, I said, like, maybe I was touching the radio, because my arm's quite short. I reckon that police officer thought I was touching my phone whereas I was leaning over to change the radio station.

Talia: Just don't want you to listen to music.

Ella: No, I was thinking terrible, but I was also thinking, like, they actually believed me and I didn't get any fine or anything, because I was like "I'm so sorry, sir I wasn't, I really wasn't, it's just my little arms." But I was kind of thinking, like, it doesn't matter if they believe me or not, but I know I wasn't speeding and that is my story.

Talia: Did you get the fine?

Ella: I didn't get the fine. And if I did I would have been like excuse me, but, yeah.

Talia: "I'm taking this higher places."

Ella: I know. So yeah, I wonder, like, there must be some people out there that have been pulled over and then if the officer sees a disability, or they notice that oh, maybe I made the mistake, I wonder if the officer kind of goes along with it, or they think oh, I've kind of mucked up here. Yeah, that was my story for you. So I hope it doesn't happen again, because I was so nervous. I was like what have I done?

Talia: Especially when you legitimately did nothing wrong.

Ella: I definitely didn't. So I think sometimes when I think of those stories I'm like what if I had been like oh, you know, that's when you have to be confident and self-assured. So that's my dilemma.

Talia: Advocacy in everyday life as a disabled personnel.

Ella: You've got to advocate for yourself don't you.

Talia: Just a bunch of nonsense. That's so awesome. >>Ella: So yes, last week we went to the Transition Expo, yeah. How was your experience at the expo, your first time there?

Talia: Loved the expo, I love seeing our disabled communities come together. It was especially nice to see in person how much work is being done on the ground for disabled communities, from learning, to making different spaces accessible, to creative opportunities and work opportunities specifically. And also just want to give a bit of a highlight to the toasted sandwiches upstairs, that's a venue thing. I loved it and I also loved that it was a beautiful spring day as well, so just made accessibility a lot more manageable for the fact we had good weather as well.

Ella: Yeah, and it was a busy day.

Talia: It was so busy. And I also appreciated all the freebies people had on the table, including some freebie fidget toys, pens, lollies. And it was also nice to see a lot of our friends and familiar faces around from our communities too. So definitely if you haven't been to Transition Expo, check it out because it's a great space to connect with others. What about for yourself? Your second transition.

Ella: Second time there, it's cool that the D*List had a stall. Like you said, lovely to see some familiar faces, but some new faces as well, all the young people, the school leavers, kind of seeing what's out there. So I think, you know, always great to chat to see what the youth are up to these days.

Talia: When I was young . Yeah.

Ella: This week the theme of the episode is does being a disabled student set you up for being a goody good or a troublemaker? I think that's very reflective of all the people we met?

Talia: I think so, and I also think it's reflective of our own experiences as well. So I think for us to set the scene for the topic today we should play a bit of a game that takes us back to school with a bit of would you rather.

Ella: That's great, I like that.

Talia: Still play it till this day.

Ella: We haven't seen these questions before, have we?

Talia: No.

Ella: Okay. Alright, do you want to go first?

Talia: Okay. And if you are currently in the chat right now, give us a comment on your answers, we'd love to hear how you feel. Would you rather call your teacher mum or dad, or fart in front of your class?

Ella: Oh my gosh, definitely call my teacher mum or dad.

Talia: Why?

Ella: Well, it's less embarrassing. I feel like it's embarrassing but it's not like, you know, embarrassing embarrassing. But, you know, if you've got to fart you've got to fart. Would you, Talia, rather -- just trying to read it in advance -- would you rather accidentally wear your PJs to a school day or your uniform to pyjama day? We never had pyjama day in my school, my school's too fancy.

Talia: We used to have mufti for year 13s, and then it got taken away.

Ella: Someone broke the rules.

Talia: I was year 12 and it got taken away from my year 13. So guess what, I'm wearing pyjamas to a normal school day because pyjamas are normal, are they not?

Ella: Maybe.

Talia: Comment if you disagree, I don't mind. Would you rather get stuck in the school bathroom all day or stuck in the staff room all day? >>Ella: Let me think. If I'm stuck in the bathroom, the school bathrooms aren't a fabulous place to be.

Talia: No.

Ella: But if I'm stuck in the staff room, does that mean I get to access the coffee machine, I get to not go to class, maybe I get to yarn with the cool teacher. Staffroom I think, yeah, it feels more comfy.

Talia: I would say same, yeah. Yep.

Ella: Who wants to get stuck in the bathroom? Would you rather take home the classroom pet rock, or classroom pet Golden Retriever?

Talia: Classroom pet Golden Retriever, no stutter. I don't need to expand on it and I know that the viewers would agree. Maybe.

Ella: Maybe. I feel like, not that you ask, but I'm going to answer. I feel like I the Golden Retriever because I have a dog and I think they would get along. It would be fun, but also that's a big dog.

Talia: It is, however I know they're very people dogs.

Ella: Maybe it's a guide dog, maybe it's a like, you know?

Talia: Love it.

Ella: Who knows, maybe it's an access dog. Your turn.

Talia: It is my turn. Would you rather do seven years of year 1 or seven years of year 13?

Ella: Oh my gosh, like now as me now?

Talia: I reckon do you as back in school and you as you now, out of school.

Ella: Well, this is a very interesting question whoever wrote this. But I think probably, for me at school, if I was at school as a high school student I'd not want to hang out with year 1s. It would be fun in craft and stuff.

Talia: Yeah. Nap time.

Ella: We didn't have nap time.

Talia: We didn't, I just -- I would just love it.

Ella: Yeah, I think I would pick to be year 13 again, because I feel like there is a few people in my class I could, like, school maybe, I could go actually...

Talia: aka my brain figured out.

Ella: Talk to the bully or something, be like listen here mate. Anyway, we're going off topic. Would you rather, Talia, to join the choir or join the debate club?

Talia: Choir. I was in a choir in high school and I can't help it, I love to sing and karaoke and all those things. I debate in my every day, because…

Ella: I debate my existence.

Talia: I debate my existence, no. I would prefer choir. I love a sing, I love a song, I love a karaoke, I love a harmonise. I also love choir camp.

Ella: Choir camp?

Talia: We did choir camp in school. Think of like high school musical, goes to, like, Bethells Beach.

Ella: Okay, I'm envisioning it right now.

Talia: Envision it. Minus the romance, plus a lot of theatre kids singing, yeah.

Ella: Okay, because I was a theatre kid, but I wasn't a choir kid because I can't sing very well.

Talia: That's alright. I don't know if I can sing very well when I was in school either, I think it was just my audacity.

Ella: I thought you would have picked debate club because of spoken word poetry.

Talia: That's true, I just think if I reflect on myself in high school, I was one of those kids that would cry when I got too in my feelings, and because I felt like if I was debating really passionate I'd be just like "I don't agree" and then I'd probably run away. So I think maybe choir was a bit more accessible because you could sing your feelings.

Ella: That's beautiful, that's poetic.

Talia: Thank you. Would you rather is our last one, only do swimming or only do cross country for PE class?

Ella: Well, it's not the second, the latter.

Talia: Because they're neither.

Ella: Yeah, can we just say neither? I feel swimming, I'd love to have learned to swim better, so I'd pick swimming, I'd never pick cross-country. Why do people still do it? What's the need? Does the whole school need to run so much?

Talia: No.

Ella: It's not even accessible.

Talia: How long was your cross-country? Like, was it -- did you have to go through, like, if I reflect on mine, I had to, like, run through, like, this forest around our school and into, like, the streets. Was that similar at your school?

Ella: It was similar. I did it slightly different, but I actually have a story about that later, so let's save it for later.

Talia: Lovely.

Ella: So suspicious.

Talia: I know I love it.

Ella: On the topic of school and being a student, what kind of student were you, Talia?

Talia: Relating to our topic today, I was a troublemaker, I was at least labelled from others a troublemaker.

Ella: Ooh, giving you that label, they planted that on you.

Talia: Yeah. I was a bit of a wagger, a procrastinator. I, as much as I loved learning, didn't appreciate how the learning was delivered to me.

Ella: Yeah said no thank you.

Talia: I was like no thanks, that's not really for me. So a bit of a troublemaker. What about yourself?

Ella: I was not a troublemaker. I think I was more on the goody good side. I think it was just -- I just was a rule follower, I wanted to fit in, my school was huge and even though my school was huge, I was so obvious to everybody because of my disability and I just wanted to blend in. So I followed the rules, you know, did whatever any teacher asked of me. I can think of, like, wagging-wise, like, one time I wagged, oh my gosh don't tell anyone. And it was year 8, it was at intermediate, year 8 assembly, and one of my friends was like "Why don't we just not go to assembly." And I was like "What do you mean, like not go? Like, who's going to -- they're going to notice." She was like "Nah, let's not just go, let's just", you know? I was like okay. And then so we, you know, wagged and one assembly -- I played hockey, that one assembly was the one time where my hockey team got, like, announced or an award, or celebrated, so they made everyone stand up from the hockey team and they read everybody's name out. And they read my name out and I wasn't there. So everyone like, "Hey where were you in assembly? Our team got called up." I was like "I came in late." I was like that's such bad karma, so I never ever wagged again because I was so scared. That's a story of being a people pleaser, doing, you know, not doing the bad things.

Talia: That's alright. I guess when we are talking about school, with the Transition Expo, what we did is we went around and we asked people do you or have you used your disability to get out of anything at school? Thoughts?

Ella: Yeah, I think ask some cool people some different questions like that. I think if you can use your disability to get out of things, good on you. I think, like, as a disabled person that has disabled parents, my parents were really keen on me doing everything just like all the other kids. So when you talk about cross-country I was like oh my gosh, because my parents were like she can do cross-country, of course she can. I'm like "Mum, come on, dad I don't want to, I don't have to." So what I did was run half of the cross-country. So I didn't get out of it because of my disability, but other short statured people, their parents were average height, like, other short statured friends and their friends were like, oh well, obviously they can't do it, or it's too tiring for their bodies and all that kind of thing. I was like "See mum and dad, so and so didn't get to do it, why do I have to do it?" They were very strong advocates of me doing everything just like everyone else would. At the time I was like oh I should be able to get out of this, come on. So yeah. I didn't really use it too much, but I wish I had more. What about you?

Talia: Speaking from a bit of a troublemaker side, pre-high school, so around probably intermediate, late primary school. Because in similar fashion of not liking cross-country, I really did not understand why we were running, someone who doesn't run. And I would use the excuse of having a, quote, "low blood sugar", to not be able to run as a type-1 diabetic. So I used to tell my teachers "Oh I can't do it because I don't have any sugar on me at the moment to get around the field", which was just because I didn't want to run, and didn't see the value in it, and was also quite unfit. So that's probably one of my things I could think about that I used my disability for. Also in the same sentence when I spoke about wagging, a lot of the times that I wagged school was not because I didn't like education, or learning, or anything like that, it was more so because I didn't understand, and I didn't have a lot of teachers or people to look up to that would explain the learnings, readings in a manner that I would be able to understand them in. And so it reminded me of having a science teacher one time, because I was in applied science because I had failed the regular stream science. And one of the highlights from that was when she said to me "Hey, when I'm pointing at this periodic table, and I love to wear jewellery, I love to wear bracelets" -- she was quite funky -- she said to me "if the bracelet noise is stopping you from learning in any way, like the noise is bothering, just let you know and I'll take it off." To me that's -- that stuck with me and made learning more accessible because I didn't realise the distractions around learning that was affecting how I perceived learning, and also how I perceived being a student. Then I recognised that there was different ways of learning.

Ella: Yeah, so many different styles of learning. That's really good that your teacher did that. Isn't it interesting, though, that we think what a good teacher for doing that, whereas most teachers should kind of recognise the different abilities or disabilities in their class and be oh actually, hold on, maybe I'll check in with the students, or maybe I'll, you know, this rule that we have we say like listen, this rule kind of doesn't fit in with this or that, or things like that.

Talia: Just nice to feel seen and heard. And then moving forward I passed that class with flying colours, just for the fact that it was a knowledge that something that she had might disrupt the learning of the class, not just myself but the entire class. So I thought that was really, yeah, yeah, really nice of her to do, because I think a lot of the times it's not, like you mentioned, considered in class that disabilities come in different shapes and forms. Yeah, it was really much appreciated, so yeah. Something that I was reflecting on. And is there any, for you, accessibility tips, tricks, needs that would have been better in your schooling?

Ella: Well, I feel like for me personally my school's massive and, like, I don't know how a lot of people get around, but sometimes if I had a class at the gym, which was over this side of the school, and then I had to go all the way to, like, I don't know English in second period, I would walk so fast on my little legs and try to get there. Whereas, you know, perhaps there was something that needed to be made, like an accommodation of okay, look, if Ella's a bit late to class, I'm sure no teacher would have literally told me off in front of everyone, but never kind of allowed that to happen, because I was so busy trying to fit in and, like, not make a scene that I was, like, overcompensating, or just trying, like, so hard to fit in. Whereas I think there are probably a lot of kids out there that maybe didn't want to fit in, like if they, for example, couldn't make it to class on time they perhaps thought oh well, you know, stuff this, like this school isn't made for me and that's kind of how they became a troublemaker. So I guess, I can't remember your question, was it tips or access needs?

Talia: Yeah.

Ella: Maybe schools should just kind of be a bit more on to it. And maybe they are nowadays, like I'm in my early 30s, maybe things have changed. But I think look at your classroom that you have. If you've got anyone that's obviously physically disabled, talk to them about what can help, but also talk to the whole class because you don't know who is in your class and who is in your school that has these needs that the school's just not made for them. Like, just, yeah, I think especially high school. Perhaps primary is a bit different because everyone has their own class, whereas high school you don't have as much of a relationship perhaps with the teachers. I think of, like, how I am now, as a people pleaser, was probably reflective of my high school years because I was trying to fit in so much and make everyone happy so that they wouldn't notice differences. Whereas, like I said, someone that didn't want to be a people pleaser to follow the rules that weren't made for them, maybe they kind of have a different outcome in life and they are a little bit more rebellious, or a little bit more of a troublemaker and that's not always a bad thing.

Talia: Yeah, it's definitely interestingly enough when you could say even invisible disability, there is a level of having or feeling obligated to navigate that as a teenager and share that in a specific way and sometimes it can be difficult to. So always, always ask, because you never know. Which would be great for our viewers as well, if you have any school accessibility, whether you're in school, or just out of school, school leavers, or even up to university, let us know what you would like changed, altered or what your school does to make it more accessible.

Ella: Yeah, or how was your experience at school? Was it accessible, was it rubbish, could it have been better? When you just mentioned before about navigating high school, there are so many other things that navigating through as a teenager, maybe you don't want to kind of it to be your main kind of identity, but because of, you know, school it is perhaps. Any comments, no? Maybe people are shy today, maybe people are reflecting too much on school.

Talia: Gosh, that's like how many years of reflection, I definitely would be taking my time. Yeah, because it's not really until you leave high school, especially if we've got some viewers who are in school at the moment, do you have all these reflections about what was accessible, what was not, something you found really difficult, so yeah, take your time in the comments, share with us and we'll -- we can talk about it when it comes up.

Ella: Yeah, I think speaking of high school as well, it's not even just the kind of perhaps access things people are going through, whether it's, like, you know, I spoke about getting from A to B, or whether it's like you said different things happening during class. It's also, like, when I think of school I think of like the ball and, like, all the experiences that we go through as students, but that are quite different when you go through it differently. It's obviously quite different if you go through it differently. But what I'm trying to say is if you're someone that is disabled and you're going to the ball, perhaps you don't have a partner or someone to go with like everyone else, or perhaps you wear a dress or a tux slightly different than everyone wears it, or you can't drink or stay up late like everyone, there's so many different things that as an experience in school it's going to be so different depending on your disability, right? Like, there are so many things. Being a kid is hard, being disabled is hard.

Talia: I know, because there are so many things, like, I guess as someone who's in their late 20s.

Ella: Yeah, okay.

Talia: You know, like being Gen Z. No, but in high school you thought it was, like, the end of the world, and then you get out of it and then you're in your 20s and you're like gosh that was nothing but at the time it was everything.

Ella: Big deal, yeah.

Talia: Then you add the layer of complexities, whether that's disability or anything else.

Ella: Yeah.

Talia: Then as you grow older, things change and become more difficult, more easier. It's no wonder that a lot of the time we have difficulty in our identity and culture and disability when you are in school and navigating all those things.

Ella: We've got a commenter, Red. "I got the disability award at school prizegiving." What does that mean? What is the disability award?

Talia: I don't like that, what that is.

Ella: Talia doesn't like it.

Talia: But I don't know if I like that, just because I saw the shake my head emoji in the comments.

Ella: Oh SMH.

Talia: Yeah, SMH. Don't worry, I got you. SMH is shake my head.

Ella: Disability award for being the best disabled person?

Talia: That's what I'm thinking. Comment if we're wrong.

Ella: Being the only disabled.

Talia: In know. Do we love an award? Sure. Do we love a stereotyped award? Absolutely not.

Ella: Yeah. And I think as a disabled person, I don't know what type of award this was, but you know when there's -- I don't know if at your school they had a most likely to. I never remember what mine was, but I wanted to be something fun and scandalous not connected to, like, or boring or disabled or something like that, but yeah, I think mine was most likely to not be there because I was away on the day or something. Include me.

Talia: 100% include me and also in high school so much drama and gossip and all of those things. And I think, like, back in my day -- showing my age -- it was a thing of, you know, especially when you labelled disability that it was a good or a bad thing, but more so it was a bad thing in high school, if we're talking about high school. So we've got another comment. "Hello, I would sneak into the music practice rooms during school assemblies because having to sit still for an hour shoulder to should with other students I didn't know was stressful."

Ella: Yeah, assemblies are long. Why? No-one cares.

Talia: No, it was just notices and some awards, yeah, it was just notices, some awards. I definitely hear you on being so close in proximity to people for such a long period of time, that it can be quite annoying, nerve-wracking and all of those things.

Ella: Yeah, there's so many things that school could, like, do differently. So if you're a school teacher out there and you're watching right now, be better and just --

Talia: Yeah, I think some people are afraid of confrontation or asking, but just ask.

Ella: We've had some people ask about disability dilemmas of the week, disability dilemmas. I think they will pop up on the screen for us. And we've got one here, thoughts on the sunflower lanyard? Should I get one? I'm not sure if it will actually be helpful or not. Now the sunflower lanyard is something for people to wear if they have an invisibility disability.

Talia: Invisible disability.

Ella: I need a drink of water, you answer this question.

Talia: Yes, the sunflower lanyard is for those that identify with having an invisible disability, especially if you're out in public, or more so public festivals or places, to indicate to people around you that can support you with your disability.

Ella: Okay, so this person is thinking of getting one.

Talia: Yeah. I think it is a personal preference. For myself, I am, as I'm sure we're aware by now I'm yapper, so I'm more than happy to share about my disability with anyone that wants to know, care or listen. And also I think it's great, especially if you're in your early stages of navigating your disability, it's a great way to have an identifier and marker. And I also am aware that there is a community building of those that are wearing sunflower lanyards, so it's also nice to be identifying other people and so that you're not alone at those events.

Ella: Yes, that's awesome. I think, yeah, I think that person should get one, like, it's also representation, right? If you're someone that's wearing one, someone sees you and thinks I was thinking of getting that, that person looks cool, they might want to talk to me about it. So yeah, I think if you're thinking of it it's the first step, you know, the next step of getting one. Get it.

Talia: Yeah. "My disability means I can't do waiata properly. What advice do you have to conquer the whakamā, shame, fear of getting it "right" and just being okay with your body?"

Ella: I love this question. So they can't perhaps do waiata ā-ringa like other people can. And I guess what I would say to that is, you know how before we talked about choir and singing, you know, kapa haka and singing waiata is not about being perfect. It's kind of about the strength you bring to it. So I'd say perhaps if your actions don't look like the person to the left or right of you, that's okay. If you're giving it your best, if you're really confident and down with the kaupapa, I think that's the main thing. I personally can't sing all the high notes or the low notes in waiata, but I still love to sing and I still love to give it anything. Kapa haka is more about your, you know, confidence, so definitely don't be whakamā.

Talia: So just having your presence there is also more than enough too, is that you're there and willing to learn, which also what I think te wiki o te reo Māori is all about as well. Yeah. >>Ella: Awesome, that's cool. Well, I don't think we have any more questions, so I guess what's the answer to our question, are disabled students set up to be goody goods or troublemakers? What's the answer Talia?

Talia: They're set up to be whoever they want to be.

Ella: That's deep, that's great.

Talia: That's a great answer, isn't it. No, I was reflecting on this as we were talking and as a troublemaker, funnily enough I'm now in university doing my masters degree. So is it troublemaker or do you just land where you need to in education if/when it finds you?

Ella: Love that answer. >

Talia: What about for you?

Ella: I think that people are not set up to be one or the other, I think it depends on a lot of things. At school, as we were saying, your disabled identity is not all of your identity, so it would focus on a lot of, like, is your culture celebrated, are they using the right pronouns for you, are your access needs being met? There are so many different things that make you up to be who you are. I think it would just depend on the person you are and how school was, yeah. Be a goody good or a troublemaker, be both.

Talia: You're welcome in the disability community.

Ella: So many reflections of school and stuff after this chat.

Talia: Yeah, much to think about.

Ella: Yeah, I think being a student is hard, whether you're disabled or not, so kia kaha. That's us for today. >>Talia: Yeah.

Ella: Well, thank you again to our sponsor. The rest of the season of Crip Café is proudly powered by Permobil and we will leave it at that.

Talia: Subscribe. Bye.